Episode 573: Eric A. Posner
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Exploring Populism and Demagoguery in Politics
What historical forces have led to the rise of demagogues in the past and how to they compare to the increasing power of populism today? What are the benefits and drawbacks of empowering leaders from outside politics during these times?
Eric A. Posner is a professor of law at the University of Chicago Law School and also the author of several books, including The Demagogue's Playbook: The Battle for American Democracy from the Founders to Trump, Radical Markets: Uprooting Capitalism and Democracy for a Just Society, and The Executive Unbound: After the Madisonian Republic.
Greg and Eric discuss the definition of demagoguery and its historical context in American politics, particularly comparing presidents Donald Trump and Andrew Jackson. They explore the rise of populism, its implications for democracy, and the role of elites and institutions. Additionally, Eric explains his views on labor market power and antitrust law reforms, reflecting on recent American political dynamics and potential future reforms.
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Episode Quotes:
How President Trump changed the presidential playbook
40:43: Trump is really not that popular, but he does—but he is very popular among his base. So I think he has decided, unlike—I think most presidents want to have, like, a large majority, super majority of support. And I think Trump, at some point, realized that he would never get that. And so he wanted to maintain his base plus a few swing voters. And if that is your goal, if that is your plan, it may be fine to do things that upset a lot of people. Whereas when these norms developed—if that is what we are going to call them—they developed in a context in which there was less partisan division, less ideological strife, and it made sense for politicians to be basically more cooperative, even though they represented people with very different interests.
Demagogues appeal to the emotion
08:12: Demagogues appeal to emotion, but it would be wrong to say that any politician who appeals to emotions is a demagogue. There are positive emotions. There are community and “let us work together” and “let us protect people, vulnerable people,” versus this kind of hatred, which is characteristic of the demagogue, who wants to find somebody to blame for people's problems.
What is the essence of populism?
06:37: The virtuous people, meaning something—well, not never really clear—definitely farmers and maybe working people, versus an establishment consisting of politicians and bankers and capitalists. I think that division is the essence of populism.
The threat of demagoguery
33:08: Usually people are worried about demagoguery because they are worried, basically, that ordinary people will be persuaded by somebody who is evil, basically, or does not have their interest at heart. It is still with us. Never went away.